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exphys88
07-13-2012, 10:45 AM
The Demonizing of Carbs

Carbs are incorrectly labeled as the cause of fat gain and sometimes labeled as unhealthy for humans by food extremists. I’m writing this with the intention of explaining why they have been falsely labeled as bad and to give ways we can manipulate them to cause fat loss, even though total fat loss is primarily determined by our caloric balance.

There are 3 main points that I want to address:

1. Fat loss is determined by how many calories we consume vs. how many calories we burn .
2. Diets high in protein increase satiety, allowing tolerance of lower caloric intake.
3. Diets high in protein result in more retention of lbm while dieting.

What happens in the practical world of personal trainers is that they notice that when their clients are put on a high protein, low carb diet, their clients find more success in fat loss. This success is the result of their clients being in a caloric deficit, increased satiety from high protein intake which increases the tolerance of fewer calories, and lbm retention caused by high protein.

This is where the demonizing of carbs begins. The personal trainer with little nutrition education falsely makes the assumption that carbs must be bad for us if cutting carbs results in fat loss. They then begin a campaign to demonize all carbs, which quickly spreads to professionals with little understanding of human nutrition, which happens to be most personal trainers you find in a gym.

Whereas, as high protein, low carb diet is very effective at fat loss, it is not the only way to go about it. Whole food carbohydrates are rich in vitamins, minerals, fiber and antioxidants and should be included in all diets. Additionally, an athlete that is training at high intensities requires at least a moderate intake of carbohydrates to sustain his or her work level.

Just because a high protein, low carb diet is effective for fat loss, does not mean that carbs are unhealthy for humans. Remember that low carb diets are just low calorie diets in disguise.

exphys88

References:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748
http://www.ajcn.org/content/82/1/41.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7990700

OldGoat
07-13-2012, 11:01 AM
Good points, carbs are your friend.

Oldschooliron
07-13-2012, 01:00 PM
Nice write up! Some ketosis nut swingers might join up with pitchforks and come after u lol.

I eat 100 grams of carbs from oatmeal/dates every morning. I'm plenty lean for no cardio!

Fit Guru
07-13-2012, 01:05 PM
The one thing you forgot to address is fats. When you cut carbs or go on a zero carb diet you must greatly increase fat intake. Sure just cutting carbs and raising protein and keeping fats low will create a big calorie deficit. When you go low/zero cabs your fats need to be at least 30% of your diet.why carbs get a bad rap is insuline spikes. When u take in carbs in spikes insulin and makes the body basically "hold" every nutrient you eat. Therefore your more acceptable to hold bodyfat more or the sugars u take in from the carbs to be stored as BF for future use. So if u cut carbs you must increase fats to offset the difference.

exphys88
07-13-2012, 01:20 PM
The one thing you forgot to address is fats. When you cut carbs or go on a zero carb diet you must greatly increase fat intake. Sure just cutting carbs and raising protein and keeping fats low will create a big calorie deficit. When you go low/zero cabs your fats need to be at least 30% of your diet.why carbs get a bad rap is insuline spikes. When u take in carbs in spikes insulin and makes the body basically "hold" every nutrient you eat. Therefore your more acceptable to hold bodyfat more or the sugars u take in from the carbs to be stored as BF for future use. So if u cut carbs you must increase fats to offset the difference.

I left fat out just for simplicity sake, and my primary goal was to explain why carbs are incorrectly given a bad rap. In my other macronutrients write up I addressed fats. I don't use percentages when I write a cut diet, I use grams per lb of lbm. I usually end up w plenty of fats and protein though because I start w those macronutrients.

I am unaware of any literature that suggests that carbs are more likely to be stored as fat. Additionally there is a ton of research that suggests calorie count is the primary determinate of fat storage, including one study I posted. I'm not entirely disagreeing, just inquiring if you are aware of any literature that suggests that.

Fit Guru
07-13-2012, 01:54 PM
Oh I wasnt disagreeing with you either. And I'm not a % guy either. I just said 30% to give people a guideline . But there's plenty of literature on how insulin spikes promotes fat storage. My point is that u can't eat 300gr carbs a day on 120gr fat so your either on a low carb diet or a low fat diet.

Rayca
07-13-2012, 01:58 PM
I also think it's more than just personal trainers that are stuck on stupid, with regard to carbs. I think when something becomes popular or fad-like, everyone jumps on board. There are plenty of low-carbers out there that are basically couch potatoes and have nothing to do with exercise. Some folks can't exercise and seniors might fall into that category but I do realize this is a BB board. It's a shame that the emphasis wasn't placed on the junk-food carbs, which is obviously the culprit. But then Kelloggs, Hostess and all the rest of the DC lobbyists wouldn't be happy. Thanks for a great post.

Fit Guru
07-13-2012, 01:58 PM
It's a very well know fact about insulin spikes and fat storage. Why do you think you take in high carbs before and after training? Because it opens up receptors and forces your body to hold on to e everything! That's also why people shoot slin right after training and take in all their carbs and protein then because your more likely to hold it. It is a fact now that even doctors see about higher carb diets and fat storage.

Rayca
07-13-2012, 02:08 PM
The one thing you forgot to address is fats. When you cut carbs or go on a zero carb diet you must greatly increase fat intake. Sure just cutting carbs and raising protein and keeping fats low will create a big calorie deficit. When you go low/zero cabs your fats need to be at least 30% of your diet.why carbs get a bad rap is insuline spikes. When u take in carbs in spikes insulin and makes the body basically "hold" every nutrient you eat. Therefore your more acceptable to hold bodyfat more or the sugars u take in from the carbs to be stored as BF for future use. So if u cut carbs you must increase fats to offset the difference.


FitGuru, I'm not sure I understand the "hold" concept of nutrients we eat. Are you saying that it slows our digestion? Because I would think that we want those nutrients to be parsed out in a "time-released" fashion. Also, the whole insulin spike thing makes me mental because aren't we supposed to spike? I mean, isn't that the way the body's set up? Isn't it just a problem if you are pre-diabetic (or diabetic) or is it really that pertinent to fat loss or BF maintenance? To spike or not to spike. That is the question. LOL...And if we eat a "balanced" meal, i.e., protein, fat and carb (in proper ratios) (starch, I mean in this case), doesn't that slow down the "spike" so that we're digesting
on an even-keel? I just get lost with all of it, sometimes.:)

exphys88
07-13-2012, 02:16 PM
It's a very well know fact about insulin spikes and fat storage. Why do you think you take in high carbs before and after training? Because it opens up receptors and forces your body to hold on to e everything! That's also why people shoot slin right after training and take in all their carbs and protein then because your more likely to hold it. It is a fact now that even doctors see about higher carb diets and fat storage.

Gotcha. Its a good argument to eat whole food carbs that are high in fiber, but not an argument against carbs in general.
Even though carbs cause more of a spike in insulin, when calories are equal, a high carb diet will result in the same weight loss as a low carb diet. Thus, the spike in insulin must be an insignificant factor in fat storage.

Sherk
07-13-2012, 03:49 PM
Great read. Carbs a good as long as they're the right ones. Carbs and fats are misunderstood nutrients.

Add: that's weird that my post just came through. I posted in this thread this morning around 8

exphys88
07-13-2012, 04:05 PM
Great read. Carbs a good as long as they're the right ones. Carbs and fats are misunderstood nutrients.

Add: that's weird that my post just came through. I posted in this thread this morning around 8

That is weird. I agree that there are huge differences in types of carbs and fats.

Oldschooliron
07-13-2012, 05:27 PM
FitGuru, I'm not sure I understand the "hold" concept of nutrients we eat. Are you saying that it slows our digestion? Because I would think that we want those nutrients to be parsed out in a "time-released" fashion. Also, the whole insulin spike thing makes me mental because aren't we supposed to spike? I mean, isn't that the way the body's set up? Isn't it just a problem if you are pre-diabetic (or diabetic) or is it really that pertinent to fat loss or BF maintenance? To spike or not to spike. That is the question. LOL...And if we eat a "balanced" meal, i.e., protein, fat and carb (in proper ratios) (starch, I mean in this case), doesn't that slow down the "spike" so that we're digesting
on an even-keel? I just get lost with all of it, sometimes.:)

Yes when food combining proper macros insulin spike changes a lot from what the glycemic index for individual foods eaten ala carte would indicate.


What he means by hold is spiking insulin pre and post workout has immense nutrient shuttling. As also stated this is why pro bb use insulin. It's the most anabolic substance we can use. by eating high glycemic carbs post workout and shuttling nutrients u switch the post workout from a catabolic to an anabolic state and the muscle building repair process begins.

Fit Guru
07-13-2012, 08:35 PM
Exactly

squatzilla
07-18-2012, 03:19 AM
There are many men who are for ex 5'11, 178 lbs. They want to get bigger & increase their lifts but they are afraid to eat carbs after 8pm (this is merely an example) because they will "get fat". Simple carbs such as fruit/fruit juices & complex carbs such as pasta & rice are necessary. You cannot eat like a bird & expect to be big/strong as a bear.

Fit Guru
07-19-2012, 12:21 AM
When I was getting ready for my last show, I was taking in 4200 calories and no carbs. When I say no carbs I mean all that weren't in greens and whey protein drinks!! 4200 cals is way from eating like a bird and I was 2.75% bf on stage!!

ozzie90
07-19-2012, 01:15 AM
Have to chime in here. What about the whole paleo movement? Break it down, some of these carbs are not edible in their natural form...do you look at a field of wheat and say "yum!"? Not edible without processing. How can this be a healthy food source? Disregard carb, fat, protein ratios. I'm not trying to be contrarian. I am truly interested in how we resolve these discrepancies in the dietary needs for the guys in this forum.

Guys like Jaime Lewis and others like him and before fucking crush weight following a diet that keeps a steady eye on carbs. I'm not even close to the caliber but I can look at my belly and know when I've been eating more carbs than usual. I can eat 3000 calories in fat and protein and look awesome compared to the same calories in fat/protien/carbs Gary Taubes has covered the science of carbs and I just don't see that we need as much as we have been lead to believe.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 01:37 AM
Do you look at a cow and say yum?

The topic is the incorrect demonizing of carbs, not that everyone has to eat carbs. Although athletes competing at high intensity levels perform better w adequate carb intake.

Many people find great health and good success in bbing w and w/o carbs. Many very good bbers eat plenty of carbs, many don't.
It's a preference IMO.

ozzie90
07-19-2012, 01:41 AM
The difference is I could kill a cow or most any animal and eat it to survive without getting sick. Try eating wheat, potatoes, soy, rice, oats raw without getting sick. Again, forget that they are "carbs" but actually consider the source. None of those would even be edible without man made processing.

Everyone has evolved to handle each food differently which is totally in line with your argument. I just don't think it's as simple as carb or no carb.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 01:48 AM
The difference is I could kill a cow or most any animal and eat it to survive without getting sick. Try eating wheat, potatoes, soy, rice, oats raw without getting sick. Again, forget that they are "carbs" but actually consider the source. None of those would even be edible without man made processing.

Ive eaten plenty of raw potatoes. I don't really understand your point. Eating raw chicken may give you salmonella poisoning too.
Just because something requires some processing does not mean we shouldn't eat it. Beans are one of the most nutritious foods we can eat and they have to be cooked.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 01:50 AM
I don't think it's as simple as carb or no carb either. the human body has evolved to handle all sorts of diets w varying macronutrients portions, except for the American diet.

ozzie90
07-19-2012, 01:56 AM
We'll just have to disagree. Beans are one of the most inflammatory foods you can eat. There are so many other foods that give you just as much nutrition without messing up your gut. You are one of those guys that can eat tons of carbs simple or complex and do very well. The fact is you are not only lucky but you are in the minority. There are guys on this site, me included that wish we processed carbs as well as you.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 02:00 AM
We'll just have to disagree. Beans are one of the most inflammatory foods you can eat. There are so many other foods that give you just as much nutrition without messing up your gut. You are one of those guys that can eat tons of carbs simple or complex and do very well. The fact is you are not only lucky but you are in the minority. There are guys on this site, me included that wish we processed carbs as well as you do.

Can you provide any science suggesting that beans are inflammatory?
Beans are high in fiber, protein, and are usually at the top of the scale for antioxidants.
I understand that some people do well w less carbs, but that in no way suggests that there is something wrong w foods like fruit, legumes, and whole grains. In fact there are mountains of evidence that people that eat these foods regularly are very healthy.

ozzie90
07-19-2012, 02:11 AM
I've already spent too much time on this but google the paleo diet by Loren cordain. He's one of the grandfathers but there are so many others after. Tons of research. It makes so much sense it's not even funny. There are so many foods we've been told are "healthy" but we've just been lied to for the past 60 years. Seriously, if you are interested in seeing the reason behind my argument, start there and work your way to Gary Taubes. It's all backed by common sense and science. I'm not trying to shit on your position but am asking you to look at it from a much different angle.

Im just trying to reconcile the food science with my new found interest in pharma science:)

Fit Guru
07-19-2012, 08:48 AM
What Ozzie said, carbs are non essential for human life. If all you had was carbs you'd die. Reason being your body can convert protein into carbs(ketones).. When I FINALLY explain this to my clients all of a sudden their not dragging ass anymore.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 09:50 AM
First, just because a person says it, does not make it true.

Secondly, just because we can survive w/o carbs does not mean that we should eat that way. We can survive w/o meat too, in fact a huge percentage of humans do and are very healthy. That's a silly argument and very unscientific.

To say that the foods w carbs are unhealthy is to ignore decades of nutrition research. Are you really suggesting that berries and oats are unhealthy?

Can you provide any bit of science that suggests anything that you claim about carbs? Any science that shows that eating no carbs results in better health than a well rounded diet?

You guys are confusing getting lean for a contest w getting healthy. Just because you can get to low bf does not mean its healthy, and plenty of pro bbers have done it w carbs.

I'll be waiting for actual science, not one guys explanation as to why we should not eat carbs...

exphys88
07-19-2012, 09:52 AM
What Ozzie said, carbs are non essential for human life. If all you had was carbs you'd die. Reason being your body can convert protein into carbs(ketones).. When I FINALLY explain this to my clients all of a sudden their not dragging ass anymore.

You suggest that carbs make you drag ass? That's hilarious considering that elite athletes consume most of their calories from carbs. I'm talking about football players, sprinters, swimmers, triathletes etc. none of them are dragging ass.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Here is something to chew on...

The areas in the world that humans live the longest and have the lowest rates of cardiovascular disease and cancers are called the "blue zones." Here are the characteristics that they share:


Family – Family is put ahead of other concerns.
No smoking – Smoking is not found in large quantities.
Plant-based diet – Except for the Sardinian diet, the majority of food consumed is derived from plants.
Constant moderate physical activity – Moderate physical activity is an inseparable part of life.
Social engagement – People of all ages are socially active and integrated into their communities.
Legumes – Legumes are commonly consumed.

notice the bold. btw, seventh day adventists are among these groups and they primarily eat a very high carb/vegetarian diet. There are tons of studies done on the great health of SDA's. In fact, I did my masters thesis on vegetarian diets and heart disease. The only physicians that have ever reversed heart disease, did it with a plant based diet that was primarily 60-70% carbs.

It's kinda hard to argue that carbs are bad when the longest living humans ever eat mostly carbs.

If a diet high in carbs and low in meat results in longer life and less risk of the major diseases, what is the benefit of not eating carbs. Please provide science in your response.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

Fit Guru
07-19-2012, 11:46 AM
Exphy I think u miss read that. I never said carbs make u drag ass. Re-read

Fit Guru
07-19-2012, 11:56 AM
I'm sure most studies are done on "normal" people. Not bodybuilders or elite athletes trying to maintain as low bodyfat as possible. I think the general idea of the thread was how they relate to athletes keeping low BF. if we're talking about "general" health then of course a well balanced diet it nessesary but a bodybuilder wanting to get below 10% bf would have to cut carbs. I think the meat of this post got lost.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 11:57 AM
Fit guru, are you saying that it's psychological w your clients?
My other arguments are directed at the other poster who seems convinced that carbs are unhealthy.

Fit Guru
07-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Exphy there you go!! You got it. I'm so glad we weren't arguing! Lol

exphys88
07-19-2012, 12:48 PM
Lol, you made it clear that you were not anti carb in earlier posts.

ozzie90
07-19-2012, 12:54 PM
Never said "carbs' in and of themselves are unhealthy. Just that certain carbs that we have all taken for granted as "healthy" are not so much. Your title "Demonizing" caught my eye and after our exchange you are obviously pro carb. Wasn't trying to hijack, just saying I've noticed carbs to be much trickier than I ever thought. Bodybuilders and elite athletes do a ton of things that are not natural for a certain look or performance (like abnormally increasing testosterone), they are pushing it to the limit, it doen't mean its healthy long term. Your original position didn't seem geared towards the elite or professional but the concepts trainers teach their clients and general helth principles.

I'm basing my position on evolution over millions of years and not the past thousand....Since the agricultural revolution our health has declined in many ways. yes, you can subsist on corn and wheat since its a cheap fuel source that feeds the masses...and yes you night live to be 100 on the diet but I wouldn't want to. I don't have the time to look it up but I was listeing to the radio and they were saying the average height is declining. Why? We eat a carb-centric diet (bad carbs) that causes low level inflammation. Our body is fighting this inflammation from birth so it spends time fighting this inflammation rather than growing.

I used to eat what I thought was a clean diet (low-fat protein, veggies, healthy grains and brown rice, legumes, etc.) but I still had a baby spare tire no matter what i did (Wheat belly). I went Paleo and within months I had abs without increasing my cardio (I don't even do "cardio") and my energy and strength went up. This isn't Atkins-low-carb-eat a pound of bacon and cheese everyday bullshit. I didn't restrict calories and I bascially stayed the same weight but I looked and felt way better. No more crazy zits that popped out of nowhere, no more lethargy. I have friends and family that would ask what I did, they'd give it a try and have the same results. I'm not an outlier.

Not the bible or anything but this gives a much better overview of paleo principles.
http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

exphys88
07-19-2012, 01:07 PM
Evolution is just a theory! Jk, don't even get me started on that topic.

I agree that from an evolutionary standpoint, the paleo diet is probably what we ate while we evolved. But, that does not prove that it's the optimal diet. And, you're making a ton of assumptions about what has caused the decline in our health, there are way too many variables to start labeling carbs as the culprit.
You're also using your experience as proof of something, that is not an objective way to prove anything. I can find plenty of Atkins freaks and vegetarians that will make similar claims.
I am pro carb because of the science behind it, but I also know that when cutting you can be more successful by increasing protein and fst and decreasing carbs.
I come from a health standpoint and not necessarily a contest prep standpoint, and this may be why we are not in agreement. I would rather live to 100 than have a six pack. Not that they have to be exclusive, but health will always be my focus.

My other point is that there are many different types of diets that people find success with, including vegetarian and paleo. There are very little absolutes in this field.

ozzie90
07-19-2012, 01:35 PM
I agree, everyone has to figure out what works for them. I bring up paleo because of the science behind it and my personal success with it. But also to let others know its an option. Its not a "low-carb" diet, its a way to eat that just happens to be lower in carbs. Its the one thing I can try and control (organic, grassfed, etc). We can't control all the environmental crap our bodies soak up like a sponge. Different post but I do believe the environment and other stress factors are the reason so many guys' t-levels are crashing by the time they hit 30. I've done everything I can do to naturally raise it and feel good but I ultimatley turned to TRT to make up the difference.

Fit Guru
07-19-2012, 05:52 PM
You know being "carb sensitive" is real. I train a lot of people and the diets vary but the majority are on very low carb diets but these people are getting ready for competition. Although almost all women have to be on very low carbs. Most are in fact "carb sensitive". They will not get lean eating over 100 grams of carbs a day. They will be beach ready but not stage ready. Now bikini competitors will use a higher carb diet.

exphys88
07-19-2012, 06:08 PM
You know being "carb sensitive" is real. I train a lot of people and the diets vary but the majority are on very low carb diets but these people are getting ready for competition. Although almost all women have to be on very low carbs. Most are in fact "carb sensitive". They will not get lean eating over 100 grams of carbs a day. They will be beach ready but not stage ready. Now bikini competitors will use a higher carb diet.

I personally only eat about 150 grams of carbs when cutting. Mostly because I don't have enough cals after getting my protein and fat requirements, and to help w satiety.
I'm not knocking the low carb approach, I'm merely trying to point out that carbs are not inherently unhealthy for us, as some would lead you to believe.

Fit Guru
07-20-2012, 08:17 PM
I know your not. I catch your point.